This is the transcript of the interview that I did with Uncle Robert. I highlighted the part that is interesting to investigate further. Generally, Uncle Robert is unapologetically traditional, he admitted it, and he does not want to change that. He is very passionate about his art that even he found it hard to sell some of his stuff because when he spent so much time creating it, he feels that it is hard to let go of it. He also mentioned that there is no business in this craft, and that he is lucky that he does not have to rely on this art to buy his daily bread. He hoped that the future generation will have a better idea on what to do with this craft. This interview does not reflect my opinions, I'm merely analyzing what was said by Uncle Robert from his point of view as a craftsman.
How long have you been doing this craft?
Peranakan beading… I have been doing this for 30 years. I’m 70 now, at the age of 40, I started.
Where did you learn it from?
When I was a child, my neighbor did beading and was selling it into the shop. In Singapore. So what they did was they got the beads from the store, and the store would provide the pattern and the beads, they did the work at home. They would then return the finished shoe cover to the store and get compensated, around $7, at the time it was 1960s. Then the shop is the one handling the sales of the shoes.
So how did you end up mastering the craft?
I didn’t learn the beading. Because when I was 10 years old, I just saw what was going on. Frankly speaking, I did not officially spent what you did 4-5 hours to learn. I learned a little bit here and there, and somehow I just seemed to know what was going on and managed to pick it up.
So you learned by watching?
Watching also not complete. Because there are certain things like… Because there were these 2 Nyonyas, two sisters, who later became my relatives, doing the same thing. What I’m trying to say is that I did not officially learn beading, nor did they teach me. I just somehow picked it up and got to know it. Why I say that is because there are a lot of cheating going on. Cheating means shortcut, going on in this beading. Out of the two Nyonyas, one was a bit crafty, because she also need the money, she had a lot of children to feed. For example, the last part here (pointing out the edge of the shoe cover), she put 3 beads in one spring, the reason is because there are about 3 beads to be tucked in, so in her mind it didn’t matter, because the shopkeeper also wouldn’t mind because it will be tucked in anyway. The proper sewing is that she is supposed to sew it in one at a time, but for her she did 3 beads in one shot, I call that shortcut. So yea I never really learn from one person lah.
But it’s not a bad thing right to have a shortcut?
It’s not a bad thing but I wouldn’t encourage this shortcut. Same thing is what I showed you the pair of shoes, the squirrel, if you leave it, not many people will know that there’s a mistake, but you yourself know it.
How long have you had this shop?
This shop here (at golden landmark), only two years. Previously, I was at bussorah street, I have a shophouse. I spent 16 years in that shophouse. I owned a shop there so I ran that shop selling souvenirs, because I was in front of the mall, so there were a lot of tourists who came to the mall to visit, so I sold souvenirs for tourists, and I did demonstrations. I did my beading and the tourists would stop by and they showed interest. It was the same shop as now, I just shifted the location.
Why did you move?
The old shop is not in the best location, I did not make it enough to cover the monthly rent. No doubt I own shop, but i could not cover the rent and i better off renting it out and I got a smaller place over here. So it’s more realistic. Because rent in Singapore is quite expensive. So yea I was there for about 16-18 years.
So from this shop, do you mostly earn from teaching students or selling your own craft?
Actually, there’s not much earning. But for now, let’s say this two years i was here, and there was covid. And of course the pandemic has affected a lot. But as for me, it’s quite different lah, I’m here to pass time for my retirement. So this beading and to man this shop at my own pace, I find it comfortable for myself. To spend my retirement here, in better way (by doing this). So, there’s actually not much earning in this beading, it’s just for my self satisfaction. When there’s people who come and learn, of course it’s a lot of motivation for me. And then sometimes I got people who come to do interview like what you’re doing, the last one I did over here was for the Mediacorp radio. So all this, a bit of recognition is satisfying. When they come to you, it’s like inspiring. So this is actually what I gain more. Because i’m lucky to say that i am not depending on this to buy bread and all this thing.
What are the demographics of the students you’ve had in the past?
I do have locals. These days there have been more locals. Before that when i was still a bussorah street and not affected by covid, i got more Japanese. Japanese because they are quite fascinated by Peranakan culture, they like the Peranakans porcelain, the culture, and they got to learn the beading and they would later make their own stuff like a scissor purse. So they branch off and do their own thing. Japanese are quite handy. Once you teach them and they understand, they can produce the work very nicely. Age wise, they are mostly adults (30-40)
What do you think is the biggest challenge of being in the craft industry?
In Singapore there are not much chance for us to show off our culture to foreigners. But Peranakan has very nice culture that they pass down, the colorful things like the beaded shoes or the kebaya. By experience by going into this beading or teaching the beading, one must have self-search and make sure this is exactly what they want to do. Because there is no market for this craft. Because it is very time consuming to finish just one pair of shoes and you couldn’t sell it cheap or do very quickly. You cant do fast enough to sell it cheap. So the market is not that great to sell this. So my mindset is that, there is no money there. It depends on each individual who run this thing, see what do you want. Do you want to make money? Can’t from this Peranakan beading. When i was in the old store, I need to relied on the other small things, like selling jades for $20 or so to really balance what’s going on. Because tourists who came into the shop would only the admire the art or what was going on, they wouldn’t spend much money. Because not everybody would spend 1K on a pair of shoes. So i wouldnt expect them to buy. But i’m happy to show off. I’m happy to show the demonstration and you got to interact with the tourists. So that is good enough for my retirement. I benefited from that, these past 20 years kept me going. But now i’m also taking things slow for myself, because I rent this current place on a 2-years lease basis. Every two years I would have a look, for example if I couldn’t do the beading accurately anymore, i would stop. So my eyesight is very important. Luckily i’m still blessed with my eyesight. For my own work, I want accuracy. It’s much better for my work. So overall, i benefited from this, because this keep myself healthy. Because this thing is therapeutic if you enjoy it. Because this sort of beading if you dont enjoy it, you shouldn’t go into it because you will be complaining or frustreated. Because if you’re frustrated your work won’t turn up very nice. For me for example i believe in positive energy and all this thing, meditation, so for me this thing is like a meditation. I do when I can, I don’t have to push myself.
Somebody texted me from America saying that they saw this rooster and it reminded them of their grandmother, and they want to commissioned me to do this for them and I actually turned them down. Then i asked my friend about the rooster and they said this rooster is actually from the Peranakan museum. And then i decided to give it a try. But after i worked on this so much, I probably wont sell this. So that’s why i rarely take orders. Maybe I should change my concept… *hesitates*. No I don’t have to change my concept just for the sake of other people. Maybe whoever want to go to this business, they might have a better idea on how to run it. Because I’m not running a business. Im happy with this as it is.
Beading is a work of love. It’s not easy for me to part ways with things I spent so much time for. It’s not easy to part. Sometimes if I let my sister or my wife partly helped me and I just checked, sure, I become less attached to it. As for my own work, i’m a bit more fussy on that.
Do you have anybody to pass this craft to? Do you feel the need to pass it on?
I am passing the knowledge whenever i run a class. When i run a class i don’t gatekeep my knowledge. I don’t say oh i don’t teach all, i only teach 80%. For me (gatekeeping) is not necessary. If I see that you’re the handy type and have a love for this thing, i would teach more advanced technique. I wouldn’t encourage people to go into this thing to create business. I cannot influence you to do that (as a business) because i know myself, it is not easy to sell. Unless, i lowered down the price, but im not going to do that, not on my time. I can pass on the knowledge to the public. As for the family, i only have one daughter and she has done one pair, but she was not interested in the craft, also i do not want to encourage her because i know what’s in there (the business).
Do you feel it is important to pass it on?
I wouldn’t use the word important. I think its good to pass on, to be selfish, it’s good that they know about me. That’s my satisfaction. If anyone branch off and better themselves, I wish them good luck lah. When people who expressed interest in the class, i would stress on the hard work. I try to tell them to think first. It's not just about paying $400, I do the teaching because I'm paid already but is that what you want to do? I try to be transparent about the long hour and hard work and give them time to think about it. That is also the reason why I don't take too many students at one time. My maximum is two, one is ideal. I think individually they learn better, i can pass on the knowledge better. I do get people, friends who want to do it together to spend time, but i don't normally encourage, i don't like it. Because they start to mingle and talk and enjoy but you need concentration for that 4 hours. I can also just go with it and don't care what they do but i try not to do that.
What is the most valuable thing to preserve about this craft?
Personally i think this craft is not too special. It’s only the small technique, for example pulling the thread from down under. That is not Peranakan teaching, it’s mine. It’s a step that I perfected, a more fool-proof way of beading, because you make less mistake. Same like the beading counting (that he invented) because traditionally they bead the pattern first, then the base color.
What is the meaning behind these patterns?
The meanings are usually derived from Chinese culture. Peranakan is not an original culture, they do not have original designs. It’s all borrowed from other cultures. Originally it derives from Chinese culture where girls learn to bead shoes for themselves and for their husbands. Those shoes become the presents for the marriage there is a symbol of Chinese “May we grow old together”. Chinese in the olden days they do simple embroidery shoes, and they put longevity symbols. That culture continues into the peranakan. So they want to teach the young Nyonya, and they found the beaded shoes from Chinese culture and they perfected it into their own beaded shoes from local and European influence (from cross stitch pattern). For example peony is for prosperity. And often in the men shoes you find dear, which also symbolized prosperity and longevity.
What do you feel about modernizing the manek or digitalizing the process?
For example Raymond is making it easy for the people to teach by printing the color on the pattern, so you just directly sew on it. For culture wise, if you don’t go through the process of reading the patterns and all, you don’t get the actual experience on how they teached it in the olden days. You wouldnt feel like the little Nyonyas back in the days. If you go with my teaching you can actually feel that experience. Because when you do that, the whole concept is different now, making it easy for you, but you’re cutting step 1-2, while the whole purpose of this beading (back in the days) is to see whether you are a patient kind of girl. Also part of the culture to see who is the good quality girl. All these are plus points. Because in asia the Peranakans are very close family. For someone who really want to learn this, it’s good to learn the traditional A-Z process. Even for my own process it’s already quite modified. Back in the days you sew the pattern first, then you do the base color. It’s harder and easier to make mistakes.
Other than shoes what other items you can do with beading?
Handbags, though Peranakans don't usually have handbags, it's influence from Victorian England. Or the mesh pouch they wear on their belt. Also small paintings, hanging on the bed.
How long have you been doing this craft?
Peranakan beading… I have been doing this for 30 years. I’m 70 now, at the age of 40, I started.
Where did you learn it from?
When I was a child, my neighbor did beading and was selling it into the shop. In Singapore. So what they did was they got the beads from the store, and the store would provide the pattern and the beads, they did the work at home. They would then return the finished shoe cover to the store and get compensated, around $7, at the time it was 1960s. Then the shop is the one handling the sales of the shoes.
So how did you end up mastering the craft?
I didn’t learn the beading. Because when I was 10 years old, I just saw what was going on. Frankly speaking, I did not officially spent what you did 4-5 hours to learn. I learned a little bit here and there, and somehow I just seemed to know what was going on and managed to pick it up.
So you learned by watching?
Watching also not complete. Because there are certain things like… Because there were these 2 Nyonyas, two sisters, who later became my relatives, doing the same thing. What I’m trying to say is that I did not officially learn beading, nor did they teach me. I just somehow picked it up and got to know it. Why I say that is because there are a lot of cheating going on. Cheating means shortcut, going on in this beading. Out of the two Nyonyas, one was a bit crafty, because she also need the money, she had a lot of children to feed. For example, the last part here (pointing out the edge of the shoe cover), she put 3 beads in one spring, the reason is because there are about 3 beads to be tucked in, so in her mind it didn’t matter, because the shopkeeper also wouldn’t mind because it will be tucked in anyway. The proper sewing is that she is supposed to sew it in one at a time, but for her she did 3 beads in one shot, I call that shortcut. So yea I never really learn from one person lah.
But it’s not a bad thing right to have a shortcut?
It’s not a bad thing but I wouldn’t encourage this shortcut. Same thing is what I showed you the pair of shoes, the squirrel, if you leave it, not many people will know that there’s a mistake, but you yourself know it.
How long have you had this shop?
This shop here (at golden landmark), only two years. Previously, I was at bussorah street, I have a shophouse. I spent 16 years in that shophouse. I owned a shop there so I ran that shop selling souvenirs, because I was in front of the mall, so there were a lot of tourists who came to the mall to visit, so I sold souvenirs for tourists, and I did demonstrations. I did my beading and the tourists would stop by and they showed interest. It was the same shop as now, I just shifted the location.
Why did you move?
The old shop is not in the best location, I did not make it enough to cover the monthly rent. No doubt I own shop, but i could not cover the rent and i better off renting it out and I got a smaller place over here. So it’s more realistic. Because rent in Singapore is quite expensive. So yea I was there for about 16-18 years.
So from this shop, do you mostly earn from teaching students or selling your own craft?
Actually, there’s not much earning. But for now, let’s say this two years i was here, and there was covid. And of course the pandemic has affected a lot. But as for me, it’s quite different lah, I’m here to pass time for my retirement. So this beading and to man this shop at my own pace, I find it comfortable for myself. To spend my retirement here, in better way (by doing this). So, there’s actually not much earning in this beading, it’s just for my self satisfaction. When there’s people who come and learn, of course it’s a lot of motivation for me. And then sometimes I got people who come to do interview like what you’re doing, the last one I did over here was for the Mediacorp radio. So all this, a bit of recognition is satisfying. When they come to you, it’s like inspiring. So this is actually what I gain more. Because i’m lucky to say that i am not depending on this to buy bread and all this thing.
What are the demographics of the students you’ve had in the past?
I do have locals. These days there have been more locals. Before that when i was still a bussorah street and not affected by covid, i got more Japanese. Japanese because they are quite fascinated by Peranakan culture, they like the Peranakans porcelain, the culture, and they got to learn the beading and they would later make their own stuff like a scissor purse. So they branch off and do their own thing. Japanese are quite handy. Once you teach them and they understand, they can produce the work very nicely. Age wise, they are mostly adults (30-40)
What do you think is the biggest challenge of being in the craft industry?
In Singapore there are not much chance for us to show off our culture to foreigners. But Peranakan has very nice culture that they pass down, the colorful things like the beaded shoes or the kebaya. By experience by going into this beading or teaching the beading, one must have self-search and make sure this is exactly what they want to do. Because there is no market for this craft. Because it is very time consuming to finish just one pair of shoes and you couldn’t sell it cheap or do very quickly. You cant do fast enough to sell it cheap. So the market is not that great to sell this. So my mindset is that, there is no money there. It depends on each individual who run this thing, see what do you want. Do you want to make money? Can’t from this Peranakan beading. When i was in the old store, I need to relied on the other small things, like selling jades for $20 or so to really balance what’s going on. Because tourists who came into the shop would only the admire the art or what was going on, they wouldn’t spend much money. Because not everybody would spend 1K on a pair of shoes. So i wouldnt expect them to buy. But i’m happy to show off. I’m happy to show the demonstration and you got to interact with the tourists. So that is good enough for my retirement. I benefited from that, these past 20 years kept me going. But now i’m also taking things slow for myself, because I rent this current place on a 2-years lease basis. Every two years I would have a look, for example if I couldn’t do the beading accurately anymore, i would stop. So my eyesight is very important. Luckily i’m still blessed with my eyesight. For my own work, I want accuracy. It’s much better for my work. So overall, i benefited from this, because this keep myself healthy. Because this thing is therapeutic if you enjoy it. Because this sort of beading if you dont enjoy it, you shouldn’t go into it because you will be complaining or frustreated. Because if you’re frustrated your work won’t turn up very nice. For me for example i believe in positive energy and all this thing, meditation, so for me this thing is like a meditation. I do when I can, I don’t have to push myself.
Somebody texted me from America saying that they saw this rooster and it reminded them of their grandmother, and they want to commissioned me to do this for them and I actually turned them down. Then i asked my friend about the rooster and they said this rooster is actually from the Peranakan museum. And then i decided to give it a try. But after i worked on this so much, I probably wont sell this. So that’s why i rarely take orders. Maybe I should change my concept… *hesitates*. No I don’t have to change my concept just for the sake of other people. Maybe whoever want to go to this business, they might have a better idea on how to run it. Because I’m not running a business. Im happy with this as it is.
Beading is a work of love. It’s not easy for me to part ways with things I spent so much time for. It’s not easy to part. Sometimes if I let my sister or my wife partly helped me and I just checked, sure, I become less attached to it. As for my own work, i’m a bit more fussy on that.
Do you have anybody to pass this craft to? Do you feel the need to pass it on?
I am passing the knowledge whenever i run a class. When i run a class i don’t gatekeep my knowledge. I don’t say oh i don’t teach all, i only teach 80%. For me (gatekeeping) is not necessary. If I see that you’re the handy type and have a love for this thing, i would teach more advanced technique. I wouldn’t encourage people to go into this thing to create business. I cannot influence you to do that (as a business) because i know myself, it is not easy to sell. Unless, i lowered down the price, but im not going to do that, not on my time. I can pass on the knowledge to the public. As for the family, i only have one daughter and she has done one pair, but she was not interested in the craft, also i do not want to encourage her because i know what’s in there (the business).
Do you feel it is important to pass it on?
I wouldn’t use the word important. I think its good to pass on, to be selfish, it’s good that they know about me. That’s my satisfaction. If anyone branch off and better themselves, I wish them good luck lah. When people who expressed interest in the class, i would stress on the hard work. I try to tell them to think first. It's not just about paying $400, I do the teaching because I'm paid already but is that what you want to do? I try to be transparent about the long hour and hard work and give them time to think about it. That is also the reason why I don't take too many students at one time. My maximum is two, one is ideal. I think individually they learn better, i can pass on the knowledge better. I do get people, friends who want to do it together to spend time, but i don't normally encourage, i don't like it. Because they start to mingle and talk and enjoy but you need concentration for that 4 hours. I can also just go with it and don't care what they do but i try not to do that.
What is the most valuable thing to preserve about this craft?
Personally i think this craft is not too special. It’s only the small technique, for example pulling the thread from down under. That is not Peranakan teaching, it’s mine. It’s a step that I perfected, a more fool-proof way of beading, because you make less mistake. Same like the beading counting (that he invented) because traditionally they bead the pattern first, then the base color.
What is the meaning behind these patterns?
The meanings are usually derived from Chinese culture. Peranakan is not an original culture, they do not have original designs. It’s all borrowed from other cultures. Originally it derives from Chinese culture where girls learn to bead shoes for themselves and for their husbands. Those shoes become the presents for the marriage there is a symbol of Chinese “May we grow old together”. Chinese in the olden days they do simple embroidery shoes, and they put longevity symbols. That culture continues into the peranakan. So they want to teach the young Nyonya, and they found the beaded shoes from Chinese culture and they perfected it into their own beaded shoes from local and European influence (from cross stitch pattern). For example peony is for prosperity. And often in the men shoes you find dear, which also symbolized prosperity and longevity.
What do you feel about modernizing the manek or digitalizing the process?
For example Raymond is making it easy for the people to teach by printing the color on the pattern, so you just directly sew on it. For culture wise, if you don’t go through the process of reading the patterns and all, you don’t get the actual experience on how they teached it in the olden days. You wouldnt feel like the little Nyonyas back in the days. If you go with my teaching you can actually feel that experience. Because when you do that, the whole concept is different now, making it easy for you, but you’re cutting step 1-2, while the whole purpose of this beading (back in the days) is to see whether you are a patient kind of girl. Also part of the culture to see who is the good quality girl. All these are plus points. Because in asia the Peranakans are very close family. For someone who really want to learn this, it’s good to learn the traditional A-Z process. Even for my own process it’s already quite modified. Back in the days you sew the pattern first, then you do the base color. It’s harder and easier to make mistakes.
Other than shoes what other items you can do with beading?
Handbags, though Peranakans don't usually have handbags, it's influence from Victorian England. Or the mesh pouch they wear on their belt. Also small paintings, hanging on the bed.
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